[Om3] Om3 Digest, Vol 15, Issue 8
Chris Rowley
C.A.Rowley at open.ac.uk
Wed Nov 5 23:28:15 CET 2008
Apologies for sending this: stupid things, computers!
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: three avenues for the condition elements (Paul Libbrecht)
> 2. Re: Om3 Digest, Vol 15, Issue 1 (Chris Rowley)
> 3. Re: three avenues for the condition elements
> (Professor James Davenport)
> 4. Re: three avenues for the condition elements (Paul Libbrecht)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 14:16:00 +0100
> From: Paul Libbrecht <paul at activemath.org>
> Subject: Re: [Om3] three avenues for the condition elements
> To: OM3 Mailing list <om3 at openmath.org>
> Message-ID: <1479C417-D4A1-497B-829F-E8B141F3A289 at activemath.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I have reserved the flashmeeting:
> http://fm.ea-tel.eu/fm/356a23-15076
> for 14:00-15:00 BST
> (i.e. 15:00-16:00 CET)
>
> I'm happy if a little menu can be sent around before.
>
> paul
>
> Le 05-nov.-08 ? 00:20, Professor James Davenport a ?crit :
>
> > On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Michael Kohlhase wrote:
> >
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> now, also Paul has given his preferences. And ....
> >>
> >> there are no time slots that all of us can make. The best slot
> >> seems to be
> >> Thursday 15-16 CET, unfortunately, I will very probably not be able
> >> to make
> >> this date. Therefore I suggest that I will try to juggle dates and
> >> someone
> >> else does the organization.
> > Nice idea, but what doe sin mean in practice?
> > I am prepared to chair a flashmeeting meeting i Paul will set one up.
> > James
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:14:26 +0000
> From: Chris Rowley <C.A.Rowley at open.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Om3] Om3 Digest, Vol 15, Issue 1
> To: om3 at openmath.org
> Message-ID: <18706.6850.775802.174181 at fell.open.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> om3-request at openmath.org wrote --
> > Send Om3 mailing list submissions to
> > om3 at openmath.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://openmath.org/mailman/listinfo/om3
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > om3-request at openmath.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > om3-owner at openmath.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Om3 digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: three avenues for the condition elements (Michael Kohlhase)
> > 2. Re: three avenues for the condition elements
> > (Professor James Davenport)
> > 3. Re: CD group and signature markup naming issues (Christoph LANGE)
> > 4. Re: CD group and signature markup naming issues (David Carlisle)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:09:13 +0100
> > From: Michael Kohlhase <m.kohlhase at jacobs-university.de>
> > Subject: Re: [Om3] three avenues for the condition elements
> > To: Professor James Davenport <jhd at cs.bath.ac.uk>
> > Cc: OM3 Mailing list <om3 at openmath.org>
> > Message-ID: <490B57D9.3090508 at jacobs-university.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > we should make progress on this, I have made a doodle for deciding on a
> > teleconference date, please give me your preferences at
> >
> > http://www.doodle.com/txbc7ez6gt5ahkzm
> >
> > The earlier in the week we talk the better.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > Professor James Davenport wrote:
> > > On Sat, October 25, 2008 5:17 am, Michael Kohlhase wrote:
> > >
> > >> the MathML WG has to bring out the next working draft of the MathML3
> > >>
> > > recommendation and we have a code freeze on November 6. Since this is
> > > the last working draft before the "last call" stage of MathML3, it would
> > > be good to have resolved the question whether the <condition> element
> > > belongs into strict MathML or pragmatic. Therefore I would ask you to
> > > give your opinions about the resolution ASAP. I will organize a
> > >
> > >> teleconfere later in the coming week or early in the week of the 6.
> > >>
> > > where we take a decision.
> > > A good idea. I apologise for the delay in not following up on the teleon
> > > of 10th - as usual I was overtaken by teaching before I had a chance to
> > > finish the follow-up - I attach the current state for what it's worth.
> > > [second thoughts - it wil probably fall foul of the length limit: I attach
> > > the LaTeX, and the PDF (which may be further updated if I get a chance
> > > today), is at http://staff.bath.ac.uk/masjhd/Conditions-JHD.pdf]
> > >
> > >> Paul Libbrecht wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> (warning: this text contains unicode character)
> > >>> #1 condition element
> > >>> Basically add, in OpenMath and strict MathML, an element called
> > >>>
> > > condition or omcond that mimics the current condition element.
> > >
> > >>> #2 condition symbol
> > >>> Invent a new symbol called condition which would do a very similar
> > >>>
> > > function.
> > >
> > >>> For example, if it was called c, one would write a conditional
> > >>> function as
> > >>> ??.x,y: c(x ?? y, x / (x-y) )
> > >>>
> > > My fundamental objection to MathML's condition, which I think applies to
> > > both #1 and #2, is that its presence affects the semantics of the
> > > surrounding objects. Indeed, I do not even no of a formal statement about
> > > how far its influence might spread: it is sufficient to inspect all the
> > > direct children of X for a condition element, or must one delve deeper?
> > >
> > >>> #3 conditional symbol variants
> > >>> For each binder-like symbol, add a variant symbol which does accept an
> > >>>
> > > extra argument, the condition. The function above would be written:
> > >
> > >>> ??.x,y: x ?? y, x / (x-y)
> > >>>
> > > To do this neatly, one would have to scrap the rule that OMBIND only takes
> > > one 'ordinary' child, but this, I think, is a small price to pay. Indeed,
> > > if it is felt to be too high, one could add OMBINDCOND, with two
> > > 'prdinary' children, the first as in OMBIND and the second the condition.
> > > This would rescue MK's DEFINTCOND from the objections in my attached note.
> > >
> > > James Davenport
> > > Hebron & Medlock Professor of Information Technology
> > > Formerly RAE Coordinator and Undergraduate Director of Studies, CS Dept
> > > Lecturer on CM30070, 30078, 50209, 50123, 50199
> > > Chairman, Powerful Computing WP, University of Bath
> > > OpenMath Content Dictionary Editor
> > > IMU Committee on Electronic Information and Communication
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Prof. Dr. Michael Kohlhase, Office: Research 1, Room 62
> > Professor of Computer Science Campus Ring 12,
> > School of Engineering & Science D-28759 Bremen, Germany
> > Jacobs University Bremen* tel/fax: +49 421 200-3140/-493140
> > m.kohlhase at jacobs-university.de http://kwarc.info/kohlhase
> > skype: m.kohlhase * International University Bremen until Feb. 2007
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:58:05 -0000 (UTC)
> > From: "Professor James Davenport" <jhd at cs.bath.ac.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [Om3] three avenues for the condition elements
> > To: "Michael Kohlhase" <m.kohlhase at jacobs-university.de>
> > Cc: OM3 Mailing list <om3 at openmath.org>, Professor James Davenport
> > <jhd at cs.bath.ac.uk>
> > Message-ID: <55190.86.158.98.53.1225483085.squirrel at www.cs.bath.ac.uk>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > On Fri, October 31, 2008 7:09 pm, Michael Kohlhase wrote:
> > > we should make progress on this, I have made a doodle for deciding on a
> > > teleconference date, please give me your preferences at
> > >
> > > http://www.doodle.com/txbc7ez6gt5ahkzm
> > Done.
> > > The earlier in the week we talk the better.
> > Agreed.
> > I hope everyine has the complete analysis of Appendex C: I'll try to do
> > chapter 4 over the weekend.
> >
> > James Davenport
> > Hebron & Medlock Professor of Information Technology
> > Formerly RAE Coordinator and Undergraduate Director of Studies, CS Dept
> > Lecturer on CM30070, 30078, 50209, 50123, 50199
> > Chairman, Powerful Computing WP, University of Bath
> > OpenMath Content Dictionary Editor
> > IMU Committee on Electronic Information and Communication
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:23:10 +0100
> > From: Christoph LANGE <ch.lange at jacobs-university.de>
> > Subject: Re: [Om3] CD group and signature markup naming issues
> > To: David Carlisle <davidc at nag.co.uk>
> > Cc: om3 at openmath.org
> > Message-ID: <200810312323.14183.ch.lange at jacobs-university.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Dear David, dear all,
> >
> > On Thursday 30 October 2008 23:44:46 David Carlisle wrote:
> > > > what was the design rationale for having different namespaces and
> > > > different element names for the same metadata markup in CDs, CD groups,
> > > > and signature dictionaries?
> > >
> > > This seems to be a fairly natural consequence of the decision to have
> > > a separate namespace for cd groups and sts.
> >
> > Sorry, I didn't have the fact that we have separate namespaces for these fully
> > on my mind when issuing my objections. Maybe I was biased by OMDoc here, as
> > in OMDoc all those different things are in the same namespace and can even
> > coexist in the same document -- but I'm not implying that this would make
> > sense in the OpenMath case.
> >
> > > STS is deliberately kept at a distance from the core OM, it is not the only
> > > possible type system for OM, and so should not have a privileged position of
> > > using the CD namespace.
> >
> > I agree.
> >
> > > > It looks like poor man's XML namespaces,
> > >
> > > Not sure what you mean by this. As it happens the basic design of
> > > CDGroups etc predates namespaces, but I don't think the use of
> > > multiple namespaces in each file (which appears to be what you are
> > > suggesting) is an improvement.
> >
> > Now I have to rephrase my original message. One thing that actually struck me
> > was the fact that the local names of the elements in different namespaces also
> > have a reference to the namespace. Why not just cd:ReviewDate and
> > cds:ReviewDate, or cd:Name and cdg:Name? XML-syntactically that wouldn't be a
> > problem, and I think that the human author does not need additional mnemonics
> > like the CDGroup in CDGroupName, as he knows anyway what he is editing, be it
> > a CD, a CD group, or a signature dictionary.
> >
> > > CDGroups are the basic of the navigation construct of the CD area of
> > > openmath.org, why do you say they are infrequently used?
> >
> > Oh, of course? What I rather meant was: Does anybody else except ourselves
> > use them? People "out there" use CDs, and I think they also use signatures,
> > but do they maintain their own CD groups?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Christoph
> >
> > --
> > Christoph Lange, Jacobs Univ. Bremen, http://kwarc.info/clange, Skype duke4701
> >
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:23:05 GMT
> > From: David Carlisle <davidc at nag.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [Om3] CD group and signature markup naming issues
> > To: ch.lange at jacobs-university.de
> > Cc: om3 at openmath.org
> > Message-ID: <200810312323.m9VNN5FZ028749 at edinburgh.nag.co.uk>
> >
> >
> >
> > > Now I have to rephrase my original message. One thing that actually struck me
> > > was the fact that the local names of the elements in different namespaces also
> > > have a reference to the namespace. Why not just cd:ReviewDate and
> > > cds:ReviewDate, or cd:Name and cdg:Name?
> >
> > If the namespace spec had been done 2 years earlier than it was, then we
> > could have
> >
> > <m:row> instead of <m:mrow>
> > <om:A> instead of <om:OMA>
> > <cd:Name> instead of <cd:CDName>
> >
> > But the fact is that the namespace spec came out late (due in part to a
> > very acrimonious development cycle:-) and the basic naming scheme for
> > openmath, openmath cds, mathml, were all fixed pre-namespace and
> > namespaces just layered on top. In a different universe it could have
> > been different but history is what it is...
> >
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England
> > and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:
> > Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.
> >
> > This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is
> > powered by MessageLabs.
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Om3 mailing list
> > Om3 at openmath.org
> > http://openmath.org/mailman/listinfo/om3
> >
> >
> > End of Om3 Digest, Vol 15, Issue 1
> > **********************************
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 23:02:31 -0000 (UTC)
> From: "Professor James Davenport" <jhd at cs.bath.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Om3] three avenues for the condition elements
> To: "Paul Libbrecht" <paul at activemath.org>
> Cc: OM3 Mailing list <om3 at openmath.org>
> Message-ID: <3804.138.38.192.41.1225926151.squirrel at www.cs.bath.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> On Wed, November 5, 2008 1:16 pm, Paul Libbrecht wrote:
> > I have reserved the flashmeeting:
> > http://fm.ea-tel.eu/fm/356a23-15076
> > for 14:00-15:00 BST
> [I think you actually mean GMT, since it is no longer summer, though we on
> this fog-bound island find it hard to tell]
> > (i.e. 15:00-16:00 CET)
> >
> > I'm happy if a little menu can be sent around before.
> How about this.
> (1) Is James' summary of where condition is in MathML2 OK?
> (2) Michael proposed adding OMCOND
> (3) James disagrees, and thinks that handling conditions belongs at the
> pragmatic->strict level inside MathML, since <condition> does not have a
> meaning by itself.
>
> James Davenport
> Hebron & Medlock Professor of Information Technology
> Formerly RAE Coordinator and Undergraduate Director of Studies, CS Dept
> Lecturer on CM30070, 30078, 50209, 50123, 50199
> Chairman, Powerful Computing WP, University of Bath
> OpenMath Content Dictionary Editor
> IMU Committee on Electronic Information and Communication
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:04:24 +0100
> From: Paul Libbrecht <paul at activemath.org>
> Subject: Re: [Om3] three avenues for the condition elements
> To: "Professor James Davenport" <jhd at cs.bath.ac.uk>
> Cc: OM3 Mailing list <om3 at openmath.org>
> Message-ID: <2946A3B2-8B04-4CCC-A4AF-207B563D0EBB at activemath.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
> Le 06-nov.-08 ? 00:02, Professor James Davenport a ?crit :
>
> >
> > On Wed, November 5, 2008 1:16 pm, Paul Libbrecht wrote:
> >> I have reserved the flashmeeting:
> >> http://fm.ea-tel.eu/fm/356a23-15076
> >> for 14:00-15:00 BST
> > [I think you actually mean GMT, since it is no longer summer, though
> > we on
> > this fog-bound island find it hard to tell]
>
> Isn't it the same now?
> (just as CET=GMT+1 now)
>
> >> (i.e. 15:00-16:00 CET)
> >> I'm happy if a little menu can be sent around before.
> > How about this.
> > (1) Is James' summary of where condition is in MathML2 OK?
> > (2) Michael proposed adding OMCOND
> > (3) James disagrees, and thinks that handling conditions belongs at
> > the
> > pragmatic->strict level inside MathML, since <condition> does not
> > have a
> > meaning by itself.
>
> That if Michael is not there does not sound a reasonable discussion, or?
>
> paul
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> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Om3 Digest, Vol 15, Issue 8
> **********************************
>
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